Draft Minutes for Apr 10-13 2000
Meeting of ISO/JTC1/SC22/WG14 and NCITS/J11
10 Apr 00 09:30-12:00 13:30-17:00
11 Apr 00 09:00-12:00 13:30-17:00
12 Apr 00 09:00-12:00 13:30-16:30
13 Apr 00 09:00-09:50
Room 68 Kikai-Shinko-Kaikan Bldg.
3-5-8, Shiba-koen, Minato-ku
Fax: + 81 3 3431 6493
Phone: + 81 3 3431 2808
Monday April 10th
1. Opening activities
1.1 Opening Comments
Benito welcomed everybody to Japan and introduced Japanese standards, our
1.2 Introduction of Participants/Roll Call
Rich Peterson Compaq/Digital
Frank Farance Farance Inc
Raymond Mak IBM Corp Canada HOD
David Keaton David Keaton
Randy Meyers Randy Meyers
Jeff Muller Oracle
John Benito Perennial Convener Meeting chairman
Thomas Plum Plum Hall
Larry Jones SDRC
Douglas Walls Sun Microsystems USA HOD
Fred Tydeman Fred Tydeman
Jan Kristoffersen Denmark HOD
Makoto Noda Japan
Randy Marques Orgin Technical Automation, Netherlands
Willem Wakker Netherlands HOD
Francis Glassborow UK
Hiroshi Fukutomi Japan HOD
Liam Fitzpatrick Ireland HOD
Derek Jones Knowledge Software UK HOD Meeting secretary
Tanaka Keishiro Japan
1.3 Selection of Meeting Chair
John Benito was selected as meeting chair.
1.4 Procedures for this Meeting
Business as usual.
1.5 Approval of Previous Minutes (WG14/N904)
The previous minutes were accepted without change.
1.6 Review of Action Items and Resolutions
Open: Gwyn to promulgate to newsgroups the DR procedures.
Withdrawn: Benito to collect DR's into a TC and forward to SC22
Open: Benito to work with Keld to set up reflector for embedded C.
Ongoing: Tydeman to find words from NCEG TR on signalling
NaNs to consider for inclusion in Rationale in place
of two-line reference to the TR (which is not available).
Closed: Mak to find example on restricted pointers with
multiple levels of indirection.
Closed: Peterson to look into Compaq being co-sponsor.
Open: Feather to write rationale for N901 item 2, assignment
of partially initialized struct.
1.7 Approval of Agenda (WG14/N911)
Correction: Item 4 N910, should refer to N909.
Two additional items for the J11 agenda:
J11 Tag vote on withdrawing the NCEG report.
Form US position on NWI.
1.8 Distribution of New Documents
There were no new documents for distribution.
1.9 Information on Next Meeting
Information on the next meeting, in Toronto, was included in the
mailing for the current meeting.
1.10 Identification of National Bodys
National bodies present were: Ireland, Netherlands, Japan, UK, Denmark, Canada,
and the US.
1.11 Identification of J11 voting members
There are currently 16 voting members of J11, 10 voting members were present
at the meeting.
2. Rational Editor's Report [N___] (Seymour)
Seymour was not responding to email/phone.
The committee was not in possession of the latest version of the
It was agreed that the rationale needed to be a living document that
grew over time.
ACTION Keaton: contact rationale editor.
3. NWI Status Report (Benito)
There were 7 countries expressing an interest in actively participating.
The JTC1 ballot closed on Jun 6.
6. Liaison Activities
It had been found that no J11 work items have been retired. This situation
would be corrected.
Voting on new chair closes on Apr 12. Randy Meyers is standing for
chair and Fred Tydeman as vice chair.
Liaison to ANSI. There has been a protest comment on the ISO standard
being adopted as an ANSI standard. ANSI are holding a ballot to
resolve the issue.
A TC is planned, 2.5 year correction, that will include the record
of responses to DRs. The schedule calls for a vote on submitting the
TC at the Toronto meeting of WG21.
The performance group were continuing to work on their document, but
no time scale had been given for when the document would be published.
6.4 WG15 (POSIX)
There was some suggestions that the OpenGroup had incorporated
all of the C99 document in one of their standards.
ACTION Benito: Find out if the OpenGroup had incorporated the
text of the C99 standard in one of their standards.
6.5 WG20 (I18N)
6.6 Other Liaison Activities
Wakker reported that WG11 met a few weeks ago.
They have started work on complex data types and complex elementary functions.
They were about to start revision of the Language Independent Datatype
The document dealing with elementary numerical procedures was being
submitted for FDIS.
7. Sequence points and related issues N908 (Jones, UK)
A revised N908 had been distributed in the pre-Tokyo mailing.
There was some discussion over what the UK wanted to do with this
Should any published document be normative or informative? How would
it impact existing implementations? Was it planned to cover all
ACTION Jones(UK): submit proposed NWI wording for Wednesday.
5. Performance critical systems N910 (Kristoffersen)
Kristoffersen presented paper N910.
Many people pointed out that the proposals being presented were trying to get
over quality of implementation issues, ie code optimization.
It was felt that the way forward was to put pressure on vendors to improve
the quality of generated code, rather than have them implement new language
ACTION Meyers: Create wording for rationale dealing with
recommended practice on inline and quality of implementation of
4. C++ TC on Basic I/O Hardware addressing N909 (Kristoffersen)
Kristoffersen presented paper on work going on in WG21 with I/O
8. Embedded processor support N907 (Wakker)
Willem Wakker presented the fixed point discussion items given in N907.
Tuesday April 11th
8a. Continue discussion on N907.
Willem Wakker presented the saturation and circular buffer discussion
given in N907.
There was discussion on how fixed point datatypes might participate
in the usual arithmetic conversions.
Wakker asked the committee for an indication on how he might proceed
with selecting the various parameters discussed in N907. The committee
wanted more information on how these constructs were used in real life.
ACTION Wakker: Provide references to information on processors
that implement fixed point datatypes, saturation arithmetic and
ACTION Wakker: Update N907 in light of the committee discussion.
The issue of I/O hardware and the DSP NWI was raised.
There was a lot of discussion of the UDI work (Uniform Device Driver,
www.project-udi.org) and whether the Danish proposals might best be
handled by this group.
Plum described his understanding, having attended UDI meetings. UDI
operates at a much higher level than the existing I/O proposal and the
UDI committee might not welcome further liaisons with other standards
Some interest was expressed in producing a C binding to UDI.
Straw vote: Do you support adding I/O hardware support to the
DSP work item?
ACTION Japan, Ireland: Consult with their members on the I/O hardware issue.
ACTION Benito: Collate responses from Japan and Ireland.
9. Defect Reports
The outstanding DRs were divided up and handed out to three sub groups
for them to work on.
205, 206, 210, 211, 212: subgroup chair Fred Tydeman
214-218: subgroup chair Randy Meyers
219-222: subgroup chair Frank Farance
Wednesday April 12th
9b. Continue Defect Reports
DR219: the subgroup had agreed that the effective type for the cases
under consideration was array of char. Lots of discussion followed.
What was the intent of effective type? Did it apply to objects only?
There were existing implementations that used explicit casts in deducing
an based effective type.
Straw vote: Is the effective type for the cases in DR219 array of
ACTION Meyers: Write paper on why he thinks the effective type of
p1 is int (DR219).
DR220: Open on points 1 & 2.
Other items committee agreed with subgroup wording 13/2/2
DR221: committee agreed with subgroup wording LOTS/0/0
DR222: Lots of discussion. Was the existing worded correct?
Straw vote: Existing wording in standard specifies defined behaviour 0/LOTS/0.
Straw vote: Change the existing wording to make the behaviour undefined 13/2/2.
ACTION Jones(US): Produce words that would change the existing standard
words to become undefined behaviour.
Straw vote: do nothing 7, do something 9.
DR206: committee agree with subgroup wording LOTS/0/0
DR210: committee agreed with subgroup wording and thought it should be
adopted as a TC LOTS/0/1.
DR211: Still open.
DR212: Still open.
DR214: Still open.
DR215: committee agreed that 6.5.8p? should be duplicated in 6.5.9 LOTS/0/1.
ACTION Meyers: Produce rationale wording for #if.
DR217: Lots of discussion.
Leave standard alone 8
allow return to be null & correct example 4
don't allow null to be returned & correct example 3
DR218: committee agreed with subgroup wording.
Wording should be adopted as a TC LOTS/0/1.
Revisted DSP NWI issues
John Benito had received a reply from Keld. Norway supported the
I/O proposal being part of the DSP NWI.
ACTION Simmonsen: Set up reflector to discuss embedded systems.
The reflector will be called embedded_c.
ACTION All: Email email@example.com if they want to be added to the
There was some discussion on adding recommended practices to the
ACTION Plum: To create an inventory of situations in the library
that cause undefined behaviour.
Benito announced that he had accepted new DRs DR223-230. He than quickly
reviewed these new DRs.
Benito announced that Japan had asked for two issues to be accepted as
DRs, and he had assigned DR numbers to them.
Revisted DR(static). Stepping back from the immediate issue raised, the
committee discussed what might be done with the prototype static
functionality. The entire construct could be marked as obsolescent, or
restrictions could be placed on keyword ordering. What were the politics
of removing a feature that has only just be added to the standard?
Straw vote: Remove use of static from array types in prototypes?
Committee as a whole 7/4/6
Straw vote: DR(atexit), accept Meyers words LOTS/0/0
Jones(UK) presented draft for a NWI on sequence point issues, N913.
Some discussion on the issues involved. It was important to be
compatible with C++, or at least a common subset.
Straw vote: Who would support work on N913?
A NWI requires support from five National Bodies.
Plum asked if the DR machinery was more appropriate for this work.
People queried if the amount of work involved was too high for the
There were still issues to be resolved in N908. In particular the
floating point model needed a lot more work.
J11/U.S. TAG meetings held.
Thursday April 13th
14. Separate WG14 admin
No admin business
16.1 Future Meetings
16.1.1 Future Meeting Schedule
Toronto October 16-20, hosted by IBM.
Copenhagen April 23-27 2001, hosted by Danish Standards.
No host for October 2001 meeting. East coast US suggested.
Benito offered Santa Cruz if no other hosts came forward.
October 15-19 2001 was suggested for the meeting week.
16.1.2 Future Agenda Items
No new items.
16.1.3 Future Mailings
Closing date for Post Tokyo mailing will be May 12.
Closing date for Pre Toronto mailing September 15.
Convenor would like all DR wording by the date of the Post Tokyo
The convenor has not been producing paper mailings for the last year.
ACTION Meyers: Find out if NCITS still require a paper mailing.
16.2.1 Review of Decisions Reached
No formal decisions reached.
16.2.2 Formal Vote on Resolutions
No formal votes taken.
16.2.3 Review of Action Items
ACTION subgroup chairs: Get DR wording to Benito for Post Tokyo mailing.
16.2.4 Thanks to Host
The committee thanked Japan for being a very hospitable host.
16.3 Other Business
The meeting was adjourned at 09:50.
Derek M Jones tel: +44 (0)
1252 520 667
Applications Standards Conformance Testing http://www.knosof.co.uk