Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:12:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "william c. rinehuls" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: SC22 N2531 - Minutes of JSG June 30, 1997 Meeting
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ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22
Programming languages, their environments and system software interfaces
Secretariat: U.S.A. (ANSI)
ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22
Minutes of SC22/Java* Study Group (JSG) Meeting on June 30, 1997 in
London, United Kingdom
Secretariat, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22
JSG Meeting Minutes
To SC22 Member Bodies for information.
* Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems
Address reply to:
ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22 Secretariat
William C. Rinehuls
8457 Rushing Creek Court
Springfield, VA 22153 USA
Tel: +1 (703) 912-9680
Fax: +1 (703) 912-2973
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SC22 Java(TM) Study Group (JSG) Meeting Minutes
BSI, London, U.K.
June 30, 1997
Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems
Monday June 30
The meeting commenced at 9:30 with the convener, Bob Mathis, as chair.
2. Local Arrangements
Bob introduced Jean Stride, BSI meeting coordinator, who explained the
7. Introduction of Attendees
The following people were in attendance:
Convener SC22 JSG
Martin Schoenhacker (HoD)
Simon Tooke (HoD)
Petri Mahonen (HoD)
Pierre Parquier (HoD)
Toshiaki Kurokawa (HoD)
Magnus Alvestad (HoD)
Derek Jones (HoD)
Scott Jameson (HoD)
3. Approval of Agenda
We will need a drafting committee to work on any resolutions.
4. Appointment of meeting secretary
Rex Jaeschke volunteered to take the minutes.
5. Review of previous minutes
The minutes from the Cupertino, California, meeting held in January 1997
(mail message 273) were accepted without change.
6. Review of Action Items
All were completed or withdrawn as follows:
* Distribute the meeting minutes - done
* Refine the technical issues list procedures - withdrawn
* Forward our statement to JavaSoft - done
* Establish a date and host for an April meeting - withdrawn
* Respond to MHEG - done
* Respond to ECMA TC39 - done
* Write a short summary of the meeting for general release - done
Derek Jones IST5-53, UK Java Panel
* Investigate BSI's hosting of a June meeting in the UK - done
8. Reports of National Member Bodies
8.1. Heads of Delegation present
Austria Martin Schoenhacker
Canada Simon Tooke
Finland Petri Mahonen
France Pierre Parquier
Japan Toshiaki Kurokawa
Norway Magnus Alvestad
U.K. Derek Jones
U.S. Scott Jameson
8.2. Austria - Voted YES. We voted Yes on accepting them as PAS submitters,
since we are willing to look at any proposed standards they wish to
8.3. France - Voted NO with comments. Prefer that the various parts of
Java standardization be done in the same group, however, if done in
separate groups they should meet together. Want the name `Java' in the
name of the standard(s). Having Sun do the maintenance is unacceptable.
Prefer a more traditional approach to standardization such as the
8.4. USA - A new technical committee, J22, was formed in May as the U.S.
TAG. (see email 439) The US voted NO with comments as reported on the
8.5. Canada - Abstain with comments.
8.6. U.K. - no vote has been taken yet. No indication given on what that
vote might be.
8.7. Japan - The vote will be taken today. Recommendation has been YES
8.8. Finland - Probably NO vote.
8.9. Netherlands - Unofficially reported that a NO vote is expected.
8.10. Norway - Voted NO with comments.
Ivan Herman reported that if the core technology makes it through the PAS
phase, it is presumed that Sun might want to use that process for other
APIs including those of interest to SC24.
SC29/WG12 deals with multimedia and wants to incorporate references to
Sun's Java specification (as reported at the January 1997 meeting). They
want rapid action, so they want the PAS process to succeed.
9.3. European Community
Has no policy on Java specifically. They are very much in favor of an
international standards process that can respond quickly.
9.4. ECMA TC-39
See item 10 below.
9.5. IEEE Internet Practices Study Group
Nothing to report.
10.1. Report from ECMA General Assembly meeting
George Willingmyre reported on the General assembly held last week.
Currently called ECMA Script with a final name yet to be determined,
hopefully at the July '97 meeting. The lack of a name is holding up the
formal process. The document won't be forwarded to JTC1 until after
The document is done and available for download, from www.ecma.ch.
10.2. JSG Reaction/Discussion/Action
The issue of conformance arose and there was some discussion.
10.3. Technical issues
10.4. Recommendations to SC22 & JTC1
The drafting committee was asked to work on wording for JSG's continued
existence, the handling of ECMA-262, and the handling of Java.
10.5. Future JSG activities in this area
The future of JSG will be determined at the August 1997 plenary. JSG or
its successor should decide whether ECMA-262 is of interest to it and if
not, where responsibility for it should lie.
The U.S. can support that any ballot resolution be handled by JSG.
However, it does not support that the on-going work be assigned to
Canada supports this and expects that JSG (or its successor) will be more
focused and that ECMA-262 may well be a distraction to JSG's primary
There were no objections to the positions put forth by the U.S.
The convener appointed Scott Jameson to head a drafting committee to draft
11. Java-Related Issues
11.1. Should all Java-related standards activities be in a single group?
What are the implications of JTC1 reorganization, Sun's PAS application,
and activities of other groups?
There ensued a discussion of how best to carve up the tasks:
Keep language, core libraries, and JVM tightly coupled.
Don't want separate standards for these unless they come from the same
committee; otherwise, problems there are problems with coordination (e.g.,
impact on JVM with respect to enhancements of the language).
JSG should state firmly that it wants to have these three.
We could debate this for a long time, however, the bottom line is that
it will depend on what Sun ultimately submits.
Can we afford to wait for Sun? In fact, might we inform Sun of what we
perceive the industry wants/needs?
The JVM needs to be targetable by languages other than Java, so perhaps
it should be dealt with separately from the language specification.
Considering the JVM as a general-purpose VM makes the problem more
complicated; perhaps we should start out thinking of it from a Java-only
perspective without making it more difficult for other languages to
Yes, we should make a statement about possible organization.
11.2. Sun's proposal to be recognized as a PAS submitter
Should we make an official statement re this?
No, we've already indicated our respective positions via the National Body
votes. What more could we add?
If we all agree, it won't hurt to issue a statement; however, there seems
to be no benefit in doing so.
Maintenance must be handled by a standards group.
The name `Java' needs to be available to the community for use in
11.3. Scope (from our perspective) of the Java standards effort
There was no discussion on this.
11.4. Liaisons with other JTC1 subcommittees and working groups
As in January, 1997, we are open to liaise with interested groups.
There's nothing more to do right now.
11.5. Immediate reactions to SC22, and thus JTC1, about Sun' application
to become a PAS submitter (ballot closes July 14)
We had no value-added contributions to make in this regard.
11.6. Contingency planning and discussion
A lengthy discussion ensued regarding as to what plans, if any, we can
make for future meetings. Clearly, our future relies heavily on the
outcome of the PAS submission vote and the content and completeness of any
subsequent technical submissions.
12. Other potential activities
12.1. Collection of technical contributions, error reports and/or
There was no support for doing work along these lines.
12.2. Roly Perera's work (530)
Nothing to do here.
12.3. Conformance testing
The U.S. National Institute of Science and Technology (NIST) will host a
Conformance Testing Workshop on September 11-12 (Thu-Fri), in
Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA.
12.4. JVM error reporting
There was a brief mention of the efforts by the University of Washington
in the U.S. with respect to their `High Integrity Java' efforts in
13. Discussion of Report to the SC22 Plenary
The Convener's Draft Report (see email 516) was discussed with several
suggested improvements being made. It was decided to make this a report of
JSG as a whole rather than simply a convener's report.
14. Other Items
The following issues were mentioned in passing with no suggestions that we
address them further: ANDF, ActiveX, AT&T Inferno, IBM's Universal
Virtual Machine, and Microsoft/Colusa OmniVM.
15. Next Meeting Planning
With so many variables, it was determined we could not make definite plans
for another meeting.
JSG recommends that, if SC22 is assigned ballot resolution for the fast
track of ECMA-262, JSG serve as the ballot resolution group for the fast
JSG recommends that, if SC22 is assigned responsibility for ECMA-262, SC22
rely on ECMA's TC39 for maintenance and revision, and not establish an
SC22 Working Group for this standard.
Whereas JSG believes that the Java language, Java Virtual Machine,
and core APIs are very interrelated, JSG recommends to SC22:
* That SC22 seek the responsibility for the initial PAS submissions based
on Sun's pending application.
* That JSG should be the ballot resolution group for Sun's initial Java
Whereas some National Bodies have requested that future maintenance of Java
be done within JTC1, JSG recommends to SC22 that JSG be assigned future
maintenance of any standard(s) assigned to SC22 based on these initial
JSG recommends that SC22 continue the Java Study Group for another year.
R-5: Thanks to the host
JSG thanks BSI for their hospitality and meeting support.
The meeting was adjourned at 17:30.
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