Doc No: SC22/WG21/N1553 J16/03-0136 Date: November 14, 2003 Project: JTC1.22.32 Reply to: Robert Klarer IBM Canada, Ltd.

Minutes of J16 Meeting No. 37/WG21 Meeting No. 32, October 27-31, 2003

1. Opening activities

Clamage called the meeting to order at 08:35(GMT-10:00) on Monday, October 27, 2003

1.1 Opening comments

Plum welcomed everyone to Kona and described facilities for the meeting.

1.2 Introductions

Clamage had the attendees introduce themselves.

1.3 Membership, voting rights, and procedures for the meeting

Clamage reviewed membership and voting rules. Nelson circulated the attendance list and membership list.

1.4 Agenda review and approval

Clamage presented the agenda (document 03-0074/N1491). This agenda was amended to include two additional technical sessions, beyond the one that is described in N1491. The two additional technical sessions are:

The revised agenda was made available on the meeting Wiki.

Motion to approve the agenda as amended:

Mover: Dawes
Seconder: Crowl

Mike Miller moved that the above motion be revised such that discussion of the Performance Group's work on the text of the Performance TR be stricken from the agenda. Since the Performance TR is currently in ballot, the committee is not permitted to discuss it. Dawes and Crowl agreed to this proposed revision of the motion.

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 lots 0 0

1.5 Distribution of position papers, WG progress reports, WG work plans for the week, and other documents that were not distributed before the meeting.

Adamczyk indicated that the Core Working Group (CWG) had intended to discuss defect reports.

Austern reported that the Library Working Group (LWG) would continue its work of processing DRs and discussing proposals for inclusion in the TR. The LWG now has a working draft of the Library Extensions TR, and intends to have the group vote on a motion to adopt it as the base document for the TR.

Goldthwaite reported that the Performance Working Group will not meet this week, as the Performance TR is at ballot.

Stroustrup will lead a technical presentation on Evolution Working Group (EWG) activity Tuesday (see 3.1). An EWG issues list now exists. Stroustrup indicated that only a small proportion of the extension proposals that have been made and will be made can be accepted, due to time constraints. Priorities:

  1. support for generic programming
  2. removal of embarrassments
  3. "dynamic stuff" like shared libraries, support for OO, etc.
  4. C compatibility

Klarer introduced WG14 paper N1016 on Decimal Arithmetic.

1.6 Approval of the minutes of the previous meeting

Motion to approve the minutes:

Mover: Dawes
Seconder: Abrahams

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 lots 0 0

1.7 Report on the WG21 Sunday meeting

Sutter reported that 6 countries were officially represented at this meeting, and that the drafting committee for this meeting was composed of Adamczyk, Dos Reis, and Klarer.

Sutter reviewed the schedule for future meetings:
  1. March 21-26, 2004: Sydney, Australia. Host is Whitesmiths Australia.
  2. October 17-22, 2004: Redmond, Washington. Host is Microsoft.
  3. Spring 2005: Oslo, Norway.
  4. Fall 2005: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada.

Sutter: one the record of response -- we are still in the process of publishing the TC -- we have now sent the ISO secretartiat the final text of the document -- we have permission to publish the RR (Changes and Context) on the committee website.

Sutter reported that performance TR is at ballot. There are two more ballot stages after the current one. Sutter also noted that WG21 has asked permission to make the performance TR in its final form freely available.

Glassborow announced that the 2003 C++ standard is available for purchase in hardcopy form from Wiley's now. Similarly the C standard is now available.

1.8 Liaison reports

WG14 Liaison

P J Plauger reported that, at the last SC22 plenary, WG14 convenor John Benito asked that C99 be reaffirmed. That base document will remain stable for the next several years.

Plauger also reported that WG14 is wrapping up work on the Embedded C TR. Also, work on TR 19769 -- which specifies new character types -- is mostly done.

Plauger indicated that WG14 intends to begin work to produce three new Technical Reports -- one on each of the following topics:

  1. decimal arithmetic -- WG14 very much wants to coordinate this work with WG21 to avoid gratuitous incompatibilities between the two languages.
  2. special mathematical functions -- WG14 wants to adopt the work done in this domain by WG21, again to avoid gratuitous incompatibilities.
  3. security in the C library

Cooperation between WG14 and WG21 on the first two of these three items will be acheived through the mechanism of a Rapporteur Group.

Sutter asked whether there was a possibility that the C committee will finish their technical work on these TRs before WG21 has finished work on corresponding TRs for C++. Plauger responded by noting that WG14 expressed a strong desire to cooperate with WG21 to avoid incompatibilities -- they will not race ahead of WG21.

Dawes recalled that when Martyn Lovell presented Microsoft's proposal for C library security extensions to WG21 in Oxford, the emphasis was on C subroutines only. Dawes asked whether there will be similar work on C++ library facilities. Plauger replied that Microsoft emphasized C library subroutines largely due to time limitations, and would be open to C++ work, too.

WG20 Liaison

Simonsen reported that WG20 met 15th-17th October 2003 in California.

A revision of the TR 10176 Annex A -- which specifies extended identifiers -- has been completed. The current C++ standard uses an earlier draft of this document. Simonsen recommends that WG21 adopt this new paper for inclusion in the C++ standard.

Simonsen indicated that TR 14652 has been adopted and is in the process of being published. TR 14652 specifies POSIX-like locales and charmaps, including new categories, but the formats have been enhanced to cater to ISO 10646. Some parts of this TR are considered controversial by a number of National Bodies. As well, the sorting standard 14651 has been amended and has been sent out for FPDAM ballot. The standard is updated to the repertoire of the Unicode standard 4.0, and is scheduled to be transferred to SC2 for maintenance. Furthermore, WG20 has decided to submit the cultural registry standard ISO/IEC 15897 for FDIS ballot.

Simonsen reported that WG20 has requested information about internationalization facilities available in Standard C++ and other languages. Austern indicated that much of the information that WG20 is requesting is already in the C++ standard. Sutter suggested that WG21 can refer WG20 to relevant passages in the standard and provide references to such resources as trade books on the subject.

1.9 New business requiring actions by the committee

2. Organize subgroups, establish working procedures.

We have three subgroups: Core, Library, and Evolution.

The committee broke into subgroups at 10:30 (GMT-10:00).

3. WG sessions (Core, Library, Performance, Evolution).

3.1 Technical Session: Decimal Arithmetic

4. WG sessions continue.

4.1 Technical Session, "Evolution Working Group activity", Bjarne Stroustrup

5. WG sessions continue.

6. General session.

6.1 WG status and progress reports.

Core Working Group progress:

The CWG will make a single formal motion on Friday to move all issues in Ready status in N1504=03-0087 except 39 to DR status and into the Working Paper.

Adamczyk reported that 33 new issues were received by the CWG since the last meeting. At this meeting, 12 issues were moved to WP status, 3 were moved to NAD status.

The CWG discussed its desire to contribute to the work for the EWG, and means by which such a contribution could be made. The following procedure for cooperation between the CWG and the EWG was suggested:

Library Working Group progress:

Austern reviewed and explained the formal motions that the LWG intends to move on Friday (see section 8.1).

Evolution Working Group progress:

The EWG will not be bringing forward any formal motions at this meeting.

Stroustrup reviewed the activities of the EWG during the week, and recounted the various technical proposals that were discussed by the group. Topics included:

6.1.1 Decimal floating-point.

Formal Motion: Decimal Arithmetic

The following will be moved for voting Friday:
Move to request SC22 to approve a new Work Item to produce a Type 2 TR on the integration of IEEE-754R decimal floating-point arithmetic into C++.

A straw poll indicated that support for this motion was strong, with none opposed.

6.2 Presentation and discussion of DRs ready to be voted on. Straw votes taken.

see 6.1

7. WG sessions continue

8. Review of the meeting

8.1 Formal motions, including DRs to be resolved.


Move to advance the following core working group issues to DR status, and apply them to the Working Paper:
115, 214, 280, 306, 324, 326, 329, 331, 349, 364, 366, 368

Mover: Adamczyk
Seconder: Nelson

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 19 0 0
WG21 6 0 0



New TR proposals

Resolve TR defects

Decimal Arithmetic

Move to request SC22 to approve a new Work Item to produce a Type 2 TR on the integration of IEEE-754R decimal floating-point arithmetic into C++.

Mover: Klarer
Seconder: Dawes

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 16 0 3
WG21 5 0 1

Move to request that the convenor of WG21 establish a rapporteur group for the purpose of preparing Type 2 TR on decimal floating-pont, with P J Plauger acting as convenor to the rapporteur group.

Mover: Plauger
Seconder: Abrahams

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 20 0 0
WG21 6 0 0


Simonsen proposed that we appoint a liaison to ECMA TG5.

Nelson expressed discomfort with this proposal, as the possibility of such a liaison has received little discussion prior to this meeting.

Plum noted that the approval of JTC1 is required for formal liaison with a non-JTC1 committee. Plum promised to invesigate the procedures and policies that would govern such a liaison.

Stroustrup indicated that the meaning of the proposal cannot be assessed, since the nature of such a liaison is as yet unknown.

Plum encouraged individuals with an interest in the work of TG5 simply to join ECMA.

Much discussion ensued.

Simonsen noted that there is a liaison between SC22 and ECMA.

Move to appoint a liaison to ECMA TG5

Mover: Simonsen
Seconder: Goldthwaite

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 4 7 9
WG21 2 3 1

8.2 Review of action items, decisions made, and documents approved by the committee

8.3 Issues delayed until Friday

9. Plans for the future

9.1 Next meeting

9.2 Mailings

Nelson reported that the deadline for the post-meeting mailing will be November 14 and that the deadline for the pre-Sydney meeting mailing will be February 13.

9.3 Following meetings

covered on Monday.

Dawes moved to thank the host.

Motion to adjourn

Mover: Dawes
Seconder: Becker

WG favor oppose abstain
J16 19 0 0
WG21 9 0 0

Meeting adjourned at 09:24(GMT-10:00)


Company/Organization Representative Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
Adobe Systems Mat Marcus V V V V V
Apple Computer Matthew Austern V V V V V
AT&T Bjarne Stroustrup V V V V V
Atlantic International David Miller V V V V V
Borland International John Ray Thomas V V V V
Dinkumware P. J. Plauger V V V V V
Dinkumware Pete Becker A A A A A
Dinkumware Tana Plauger A A A A
Edison Design Group J. Stephen Adamczyk V V V V V
Edison Design Group John H. Spicer A A A A
Edison Design Group Daveed Vandevoorde A A A A
Fermi Nat. Accelerator Lab Walter E. Brown V V V V V
Fermi Nat. Accelerator Lab Marc F. Paterno A A A A A
IBM Robert Klarer V V V V V
IBM Sandor Mathe A A A A A
Indiana University Jeremy Siek V V V V V
Indiana University Jaako Järvi A A A A A
Intel Clark Nelson V V V V V
Intel Judy Ward A A A A A
Mentor Graphics Antonio Bigazzi V V V V V
Metrowerks Howard E. Hinnant V V V V V
Microsoft Jason Shirk V V V V V
Microsoft Herb Sutter A A A A A
None - (Abrahams) David Abrahams V V V V V
None - (Dawes) Beman G. Dawes V V V V V
None - (Feher) Attila Feher A A A A A
None - (Lippincott) Lisa Lippincott A A A A A
None - (Mensonides) Paul Mensonides A A A A
Perennial Barry Hedquist V V V V V
Plum Hall Thomas Plum V V V V V
Programming Research Richard Corden V V V V V
Red Hat Jason Merrill V V V V V
Red Hat Benjamin Kosnik A A A A A
Rogue Wave Software Martin Sebor V V V
Sun Microsystems Lawrence Crowl V V V V V
Sun Microsystems Stephen D. Clamage A A A A A
The Mathworks William M. Miller V V V V V
ACCU Francis W. Glassborow N N N N
CodeSourcery Mark Mitchell N N N N
DB Systems Jens Maurer N N N N N
Integrable Systems Gabriel Dos Reis N N N N N
Phaidros Software Dietmar Kühl N N N N N
RAP Keld Simonsen N N N N N
Tokyo University of Technology Ichiro Koshida N N N N N
Toshiba Seiji Hayashida N N N N N
Lois Goldthwaite N N N N N
Alisdair Meredith N N N N