SC22/WG21/N1194
J16/99-0017
2 May, 1999
Sean A Corfield
sean@ocsltd.com

J16 Meeting No. 28
WG21 Meeting No. 23
11-16 April, 1999

Formal Minutes

The Shelbourne Hotel
27 St Stephens Green
Dublin 2
Ireland
+1 353 1 676 6471

WG21 Meeting, Sunday, 11 April, 1999

1. Opening and introductions

Plum called the meeting to order at 18:01BST, 11 April, 1999.

1.1 Welcome from host

O'Riordan welcomed everyone to The Shelbourne Hotel, Dublin and Ireland.

1.2 Roll call of technical experts

In attendance were:

Name

Affiliation

Klarer, Robert

Canada

Schmeiser, Jamie

Canada

Sutter, Herb

Canada (head of delegation)

Plum, Tom

Convener WG21

Kristoffersen, Jan

Denmark

Simonsen, Keld

Denmark (head of delegation)

Bonnard, Valentin

France

Schumacher, Georges

France

Lextrait, Vincent

France (head of delegation)

Josuttis, Nico

Germany

Kuhl, Dietmar

Germany (head of delegation)

Fitzpatrick, Liam

Ireland

O'Riordan, Martin

Ireland (head of delegation)

Fukutomi, Hiroshi

Japan

Obata, Masaya

Japan

Hayasida, Seiji

Japan (head of delegation)

Goldthwaite, Lois

UK

Radford, Mark

UK

Glassborow, Francis

UK (head of delegation)

Corfield, Sean

UK, Secretary J16

Benito, John

USA

Dawes, Beman

USA

Stroustrup, Bjarne

USA

Nelson, Clark

USA (head of delegation)

Clamage, Steve

USA, Chair J16

Koenig, Andrew

USA, Project Editor

1.3 Select meeting chair

Plum was acclaimed.

1.4 Select meeting secretary

Corfield acted as secretary.

1.5 Select language

Plum nominated English. Approved by acclamation.

1.6 Adopt agenda

The agenda, N1180 = 99-0003, was adopted by acclamation.

1.7 Select drafting committee

Plum suggested selecting a drafting committee in case we need to draft any motions. O'Riordan, Klarer, Kuhl volunteered.

1.8 Approve minutes from previous meeting

Deferred to the joint meeting since the minutes included both WG21 and J16 meetings.

1.9 Review action items from previous meeting

There were no outstanding action items.

1.10 Recognise documents

There were no documents to recognise.

2. Status, liaison and action item reports

These were mostly deferred to the joint meeting except as noted below.

2.2.2 SC22/WG11 (Binding Techniques) report

Following on from an SC22 document concerning the CORBA/C++ mapping, there was some discussion about how WG21 can provide feedback to OMG. It was decided that if there was enough interest within J16, we could create an ad hoc group and approach OMG. Plum asked O'Riordan to raise this issue in the joint meeting.

3. New business

3.1 Defect Report procedures

Dawes reported that there are about 130 issues on the Library issues list. He asked for guidance on how to dispose of those issues agreed to be (1) a defect with a stable resolution, (2) not a defect, (3) a duplicate. Plum confirmed that we would follow the procedure agreed in Nice.

Plum noted we have no one to speak for Core WG at this meeting. This will be raised in joint session. O'Riordan volunteered to chair Core if no one else is available.

3.2 Future meeting schedules

Deferred to 5.3.

3.3 NP status and planning

The Performance NP proposal passed, so we should start to organize this project at this meeting. Kehoe will chair the Performance WG.

4. Review and approve resolutions and issues

There were no resolutions to approve nor any outstanding issues to review.

5. Closing process

5.1 Select chair for next meeting

Plum agreed to chair the Kona meeting.

5.2 Establish next agenda

Plum asked for any additional issues, otherwise it will be the same as this meeting.

5.3 Future meetings

Plum noted that official invites have yet to go out.

The next meeting will be in Hawaii, 20-26 October 99. It will be a five day meeting, held jointly with WG14. Plum noted WG14 are meeting 18-22 October and our timescales had been agreed with WG14. The meeting will be held at the Keauhau Hotel, run by the Aston Group.

Japan has invited WG21 to Tokyo for April 2000. Denmark has also offered to host that meeting. Plum asked if Denmark would host April 2001 - Simonsen said this should be no problem. It was suggested that the October 2000 meeting should be in mainland North America, perhaps East Coast or more central, Chicago area or somewhere in Texas.

5.4 Future mailings

Deferred to joint session.

5.5 Assign document numbers

There were none to assign.

5.6 Review action items

There were no action items to review.

5.7 Any other business

No-one had any other business.

5.8 Thanks to host

WG21 thanked O'Riordan for organizing this meeting.

5.9 Adjournment

Plum suggested WG21 recess at this point in case we need to reconvene later in the week.

WG21 recessed at 19:05BST.

WG21 reconvened after the J16 meeting adjourned on Friday 16 April.

Plum moved to adjourn at 09:48BST on Friday 16 April.

WG21: Unanimous in favor.

WG21+J16 Meeting, 12-16 April, 1999

1. Opening activities

Clamage opened the meeting at 9:14BST on Monday 12 April 1999.

1.1 Opening comments

1.2 Introductions

Clamage introduced the chair, WG21 convener and vice-chair. Everyone then introduced themselves.

1.3 Membership, voting rights, and procedures for the meeting

Clamage explained voting procedures. Miller circulated the membership list and J16 attendance list and explained the document numbering.

1.4 Agenda review and approval

It was noted that the J16 document number for the agenda should be corrected from "90-0004" to "99-0004". Due to a room booking clash, it was suggested that we swap the proposed Wednesday and Thursday agenda sessions.

Motion by Charney/Dawes to approve N1181 = 99-0004 with the Wednesday & Thursday sessions swapped as the agenda for this meeting:

J16: Lots in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

1.5 Distribution of position papers, WG progress reports, WG work plans for the week, and other documents that were not distributed before the meeting.

No documents were ready at this point. The WGs will be as follows: Core, Library, Performance. None of the Core chairs were present. Clamage asked for a volunteer to run Core. Miller volunteered.

WG progress reports: Dawes said LWG will be working on the issues list and looking at a couple of papers. LWG will discuss possible NPs for library extensions. Kehoe said PWG will work on the four sections of the TR to produce outlines for content. Miller said CWG will look at the issues list, in particular those that have consensus on resolution with a view to drafting wording for the resolutions.

1.6 Approval of the minutes of the previous meeting

Motion by Sutter/Josuttis to approve N1170 = 98-0027 as the minutes of the previous meeting:

J16: Lots in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

1.7 Report on the WG21 Sunday meeting

Plum summarized the WG21 meeting.

Plum asked for a couple of volunteers to host the October 2000 meeting. Crowfoot said he would ask his company Xerox since they had offered to host the July meeting that was cancelled when we changed from a three to two meeting schedule. Sutter said IBM might be interested. This would place the meeting in Rochester or Toronto.

Plum then discussed the DR process. He referred to the diagram in the minutes from Nice. The WGs have been producing I and P items under Dawes and Gibbons. We are at the stage where WGs are ready to bring P items (proposed DRs) to the full committee. This will be part of the Wednesday process for J16 to filter the P items. From there, items should move quickly through the Editor (becoming actual Defect Reports) to the convener (WG21). From there to the WG21 committee where they should be voted on as a T item (tentatively resolved).

Josuttis asked what exactly we were planning to do about the CORBA mapping. Plum said he had asked people to raise the issue through their companies to see whether OMG actually wants a J16 subgroup to help them.

1.8 Liaison reports

Benito reported on WG11's status. He said the FCD was voted on in February, and the FDIS is to be published shortly.

Simonsen asked committee members to review the three drafts currently being worked on by WG20: the Sorting FCD (for which the ballot has just closed), the Locale FCD (for which the ballot is closing this month) and the Internationalization API (with a C++ binding) WD.

1.9 New business requiring actions by the committee

None.

2. Organize subgroups, establish working procedures.

This had been done (under 1.5).

J16 recessed at 11:04BST on Monday 12 April.

3. WG sessions (Core, Library, Performance, possibly others).

4. WG sessions continue.

5. General session.

J16 reconvened at 8:55BST on Wednesday 14 April.

5.1 WG status and progress reports.

This was combined with 5.2.

5.2 Presentation and discussion of DRs ready to be voted on. Straw votes taken.

Dawes presented the issues that the LWG wants to bring forward as DRs. The document is N1184 = 99-0007 (in the pre-Dublin mailing). He noted that item 96, previously "Not a Defect" is now considered a defect and is being worked on. He said the 43 items marked as READY and will be forwarded to Editor, with a request to put them forward as DRs.

Vandevoorde explained the progress made by the CWG on issues from N1183 = 99-0006. Vandevoorde then presented new issues with consensus as Not A Defect: issues 42 and 14. There was no discussion about these. He then presented issues with consensus on action:

WG21+J16 straw vote on basic proposal: there were no objections.

WG21+J16 straw vote on additional change to include trailing array initialization: 15 in favor, 2 opposed.

WG21 straw vote on this additional change: 5 in favor, none opposed, 1 abstained [Secretary's note: there should be 2 more voting NBs].

Kehoe reported on what the PWG have been doing. The subgroups have been focusing on locales and exception handling. He hoped by Friday to have initial reports on these two sections.

J16 recessed at 11:25BST on Wednesday 14 April.

6. WG sessions continue.

7. WG sessions continue. DR motions modified as needed, made available in printed form by the end of the day.

8. Review of the meeting

Clamage reconvened J16 at 08:48BST on Friday 16 April.

Clamage commended O'Riordan's organization of the reception. Applause.

Clamage said we have made excellent progress at this meeting.

8.1 Formal motions, including DRs to be resolved.

1. Motion by Miller/Vandevoorde:

Move that we submit to the Project Editor as Potential Defect Reports all those issues in N1196 = 99-0019, "Core WG Defect Resolutions".

Motion passed J16: 21 in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

Plum noted that the "committee" in the flowchart for this vote is J16 so any WG21 vote is purely advisory.

WG21 advisory vote: 8 in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

2. Motion by Corfield/Dawes:

Move that we submit to the Project Editor as Potential Defect Reports all those issues with a status of "Ready" in N1184 = 99-0007, "Library Issues List (Revision 6)".

Motion passed J16: 21 in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

WG21 advisory vote: 8 in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

8.2 Review of action items, decisions made, and documents approved by the committee

There was a lot of discussion over the preferred form for the TC. Koenig said he will maintain a WP as the definitive form and later generate a document with change bars which we must review against the issue lists to ensure we got it right. Plum said Koenig needs to keep a list of all editorial changes that he applies to the document (that do not come from LWG or CWG issue lists). Koenig agreed.

Plum said he was officially notifying The Project Editor that the issues voted on at this meeting constitute a set of DRs. Plum felt that WG21 could vote on these DRs in Kona. There were no objections.

8.3 Issues delayed until Friday

Plum reported on the progress of the PWG. He has HTML for a rough draft of parts of the TR - the section on optimizing locales is missing but Stroustrup will provide that shortly. Plum felt it wasn't worth producing a paper copy for the post-Dublin mailing but we might attempt to do it for Kona. No one objected.

9. Plans for the future

9.1 Next meeting

The next meeting will be in Kona, HI on 20-26 October, 1999. Information about the meeting will be in the next mailing.

9.2 Mailings

The deadline for the post-Dublin mailing is 30 April. The deadline for the pre-Kona mailing is 31 August.

9.3 Following meetings

Plum said ITSCJ have invited WG21 to hold a meeting in Tokyo in April 2000.

The offer of a meeting for October 2000 came from Crowfoot on behalf of Xerox, Klarer on behalf of IBM and Sutter on behalf of PeerDirect. This meeting will probably be in Toronto. WG14 will almost certainly co-locate with WG21 at this meeting.

Plum said we have a tentative invite from Denmark for April 2001.

Motion by Miller to thank O'Riordan as the host. Applause.

Motion by Dawes/Vandevoorde to adjourn:

Motion passed WG21+J16: lots in favor, none opposed, none abstained.

Clamage adjourned the meeting at 9:47am.

Appendix A J16 Attendance list

Name

Organization

M

T

W

Th

F

Koenig, Andrew

AT&T

V

V

V

V

V

Stroustrup, Bjarne

AT&T

A

A

 A

 

 

Peters, Jeff

Borland/Inprise

A

A

A

A

A

Schnell, Fabian

CAD-UL

A

A

A

A

A

Charney, Reg

Charney & Day

V

V

V

V

V

Comeau, Greg

Comeau Computing

V

V

V

V

V

Ward, Judy

Compaq Computer

V

V

V

V

V

Kehoe, Brendan

Cygnus Solutions

V

V

V

V

V

Becker, Pete

Dinkumware Ltd

V

V

V

V

V

Abrahams, David

Dragon Systems

A

A

A

 

 

Jonsson, Fredrik

Ericsson

V

V

V

V

V

Vandevoorde, Daveed

Hewlett-Packard

V

V

V

V

V

Klarer, Robert

IBM

V

V

V

V

V

Schmeiser, Jamie

IBM

A

A

A

A

A

Nelson, Clark

Intel

V

V

V

V

V

Munch, Max

Lex, Hack & Associates

A

A

A

A

A

Corfield, Sean A

Object Consultancy Services Ltd

V

V

V

 

V

Colvin, Greg

Oracle

V

V

V

V

V

Sutter, Herb

PeerDirect Inc

V

V

V

 

 

Benito, John

Perennial

V

V

V

V

V

Plum, Tom

Plum Hall

V

V

V

V

V

Fitzpatrick, Liam

Programming Research

A

A

A

A

 

Spencer, Michael

Programming Research

V

V

V

V

V

Wilcox, Tom

Rational Software Corp

V

V

V

V

V

Pettersen, Bjorn

Rogue Wave

V

V

V

V

V

Dawes, Beman

Self

V

V

V

V

V

Wengler, Christian

SET Consulting Engineers Gmbh

A

A

A

 

 

Miller, William M.

Software Emancipation Technology

V

V

V

V

V

Ball, Mike

Sun Microsystems

V

V

V

V

V

Clamage, Steve

Sun Microsystems

A

A

A

A

A

Crowfoot, Norm

Xerox Corporation

V

V

V

V

V

 

Total voting

22

22

22

20

21

 

Total attending

9

9

9

6

5

 

Overall total

31

31

31

26

26